Below is a transcript of an episode of The Marathon Podcast. It’s been lightly condensed and edited for clarity. You can watch a video version of the episode above, or via our YouTube channel (subscribe here), or on Spotify, which now supports video podcasts. You can listen to the episode in the embedded player below, or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
Michael Doyle (00:06.126)
This is the Marathon Handbook Podcast and I am joined today by the Steve Prefontaine of the show, Alex Cyr.
I was hoping that was me. Suck it, Katelyn.
That was me.
Michael Doyle (00:23.618)
He’s young. He’s brash. So much potential and the Frank Shorter of the. Katelyn Tosse. Grindr, absolute legend. And the reason. and who am I? I am the. I’m the Jack Daniels of the podcast. I am not the Tennessee Whiskey, but the exercise physiologist. The reason why.
Okay.
That’s also good.
Michael Doyle (00:53.698)
mention these three important characters in American distance running history is because today we are talking about a little thing called running economy or efficiency. We’re going to get into what it is exactly because sort of an opaque term. What is running economy? Why it is important to you as a runner, as a runner of any, at any level. If you’re listening to us and you’ve just started out running and you’re just trying to figure out how to run better.
This is an important one for you. If you’re a, um, a sub elite runner or even an elite runner like Mr. Alex Cyr is, this is also important for you actually probably desperately important for you as you’re to shave off those like last seconds and squeeze out all of that potential that you do have running economy. We’re talking about what it is. Uh, we’re going to break it down a little bit. We’re going to get a little sciencey, a little nerdy, keep it entertaining.
We’re also going to answer the big question of like, can you improve running economy and how do you approve running economy? We’ve got like five or six ways that you can improve running economy and ways you can incorporate that into your daily running. First guys, let’s talk a little bit about, and this fits with running economy. Alex, you went to New York city over the weekend and I’m super intrigued by this. You’re, I think we’re going to get some content around this too, for the YouTube channel. What?
Why were you in New York?
I went to the Don’t Die Summit.
Michael Doyle (02:28.782)
I love the name of it. The name is amazing. like so on the nose. Die. die.
Yeah
And I did.
They have excellent marketing. They had a Grim Reaper there. if you don’t know what, yeah, like this man, it was a man because I saw him in the men’s room peeing from his Grim Reaper suit. But the Don’t Die Summit, if you’re not familiar with Don’t Die, it’s Brian Johnson’s movement. So this tech multi-multi-millionaire who’s become this guy who’s trying to slow down his own pace of aging. He’s been doing this for many years, but he’s recently become really popular.
There’s a Netflix documentary that came out. I think that one’s also called Don’t Die, but it’s the whole movement and ideology around what this guy is doing. So it’s like taking a whole lot of supplements, having a super strict sleeping schedule, exercising regularly. No real running, I think, in his protocol, which is kind of interesting, but I’m not 100 % sure. There is some cardiovascular stuff. And all of it is super documented, super measured. He’s got a whole team of doctors following him.
Alex Cyr (03:35.84)
It’s super scientific. It’s controversial because I mean, it’s all encompassing. Like you or I couldn’t just go and do what he does. Like this is so invasive that he said he can’t keep a girlfriend. Like he’s done blood transfusions with his son. He’s gotten fat injected in his face. It’s a whole… So he was there. So a lot of people are curious, right? So he’s been, I guess, capitalizing on this thing to host summits.
my gosh
Alex Cyr (04:05.08)
to explain his protocol, to sell his product. He’s got this product called like the blueprint and that’s like the protein powder and the supplements that he takes. course. So, and I went there, I was covering the event and while there, I got to test my own biological age. And I bring this up just to piss you both off because chronologically I may be 29, but biologically,
Thanks.
Katelyn Tocci (04:28.61)
Thanks, Alex.
Alex Cyr (04:34.24)
It turns out that I’m 19.
A teenager.
I almost lost our clean rating in the pod just a second ago there. An F-bomb almost just slipped out of my mouth.
19. Okay, get off. You’re not even old enough to be on this pod.
That’s right. It’s not legal in the States. think what happened is that there are two ways to test your age. Like one is by doing invasive tests like testing your blood and stuff. We didn’t do that. Like it was only like physical tests. So push-ups and reach and grip strength and balance and I have really long arms and so I killed the sit and reach. And so I think that made me 19 and not 29 if I had to guess where I’m an outlier. So but
Katelyn Tocci (05:21.07)
So you’re not flexible, you just have long arms.
I have long arms and that’s gonna keep me young, baby.
Well, now, genetics are a huge component to all this, right? mean, you know, yeah, little tease for later on. We talk about that as being a significant factor in running economy, of course. Well, I was expecting you to say that your biological age was like 12 or nine years old or something like that, that you were like, you know, just you’re still fresh and new. You’re still regenerating cells at a max rate. What a weird and wild world that is. My one question for him would be like,
If you’re trying to live forever, why are you flying around the world doing this hustle and this conference? Wouldn’t it be smarter if you just like, you know, stayed wrapped in bubble wrap in a nice comfortable home? exactly.
Live in a plastic room.
Michael Doyle (06:12.13)
Exactly.
Yes, but guys, social engagement is key to longevity. And so you need to build those things in.
Okay.
Of course, it’s got nothing to do with selling that blueprint. Nothing.
So how many supplements are you going to start taking, Alex?
Alex Cyr (06:27.304)
well, I mean, I’m on my own supplement journey, but it’s way more conservative. I’ve tried, I’ve started on creatine, not because of the conference before then, honestly, because of Brady Holmer. Shout out to Brady. He’s been, well, he writes a newsletter for us and he’s already quite big online, exercise, physiology, exercise, science guy. And he started taking creatine and he said it’s been helping. anyway, that’s the extent of my experimenting. And I take an iron supplement because I always have.
Mm-hmm.
Katelyn, speaking of iron supplements, you’re deep, deep into marathon training for the Boston Marathon. I like it should be like the Ohio State University, we should call it the Boston Marathon. You’re, you’re probably halfway through your season already, right?
That’s right.
Katelyn Tocci (07:17.666)
I can’t believe it. Halfway through my season, just killing it.
how many weeks into the Boston Marathon.
It’s 10, right? Nine? My gosh. It’s soon. It’s very soon. I don’t have the exact number, but it feels soon. Just in the thick of it, running long, long runs, adding in that marathon pace. I just feel shattered all the time. No, no, no, I’m fine. After I recover the next day, I feel great to go back and add again, just to make sure I eat enough, make sure I sleep enough, and I feel well. But after the workouts, I’m like, wow, this is hard. Running.
The road is so hard and I will always say it feels like a hundred K trail race feels like a breeze next to a 42 K marathon.
And you’re building that running economy right now. We’re not going to segue just quite yet, but you’re like, you’re right in the thick of strengthening your running economy for race day. You’re trying the, you’re trying the, the, sort of like threading the careful needle of doing the mid season prep race or just like a fun race while still like training through, right? You’re going to do a trail race in Costa Rica.
Katelyn Tocci (08:30.72)
Yeah, I was looking around for a half marathon because I thought a half marathon road race would be really great for me just for that race experience. I couldn’t find one that would work this season. So there’s this really awesome local trail race. There was 16K and there was a 25K. And I said, well, since it’s trail, I’ll do the 16K. And even though it’s trail, and it will probably have a ton of uphill and downhill, what I’m looking forward to is just the race experience.
and just trying to push really hard for that 16K. So I think even though it’s trail and I won’t be running on the road or I can’t practice my marathon pace per se, I think I’ll be able to practice just running really hard. So it’ll be helpful no matter what and super fun.
I can tell you guys, speaking of run, speaking of running on trails. So we’re recording this Wednesday, February 19th and much of North America is just like blanketed and was like a snowpocalypse, an Arctic nightmare.
They use the word vortex a lot.
Vortex. That’s what I was trying to sum it up. was like, what’s that like, what is that weather network term? Vortex, weather channel word. Guys, you’re correct. Vortex. Yes. And it was minus 16 degrees Celsius this morning. That’s two degrees Fahrenheit, my American friends. That is cold. That’s without the windchill. was below zero Fahrenheit with the windchill. And we’ve got like feet of snow on the ground.
Katelyn Tocci (09:53.752)
getting pummeled.
Michael Doyle (10:14.254)
Uh, just, it’s just terrible running conditions. And last Friday I decided, I actually didn’t decide. I went with a friend of mine for a run. And he’s like, he started off the run. picked me up at, for a lunch run. He said to me, you’re going to hate me today. And I was like, okay, that’s a great way to start off the run. He’s like, cause he sets the route. He’s a Strava nerd. He likes to set these routes. He’s got, he likes to explore the city. It’s actually a lot of fun running with them. He’s like, you’re not going to like this.
just go with it. You’re going to hate me, but you’re not, but just go with it. We immediately dipped down into a very technical trail that is covered in two feet of snow.
I would have been out. Nope.
I was going to turn around instead of walking back.
I ran 12 kilometers in one to two feet of snow.
Katelyn Tocci (11:06.806)
It’s no easier than sand, Michael. We spoke about sand recently.
Sand it’s actually easier. There you go. Because you have to run, you have to have such a high, like my knees, I had to have such a high step in my running form and I had no idea what was underneath the snow. I’ve run this trail a million times in the spring, summer and fall. And it’s a fairly technical single track trail with a lot of elevation.
my goodness.
Michael Doyle (11:37.262)
Going down was insane. At one point I was sliding down and I was wearing a pair of Nike Pegasus, not even the trail pegs, just a pair of Nike Pegasus because I had no idea what I was in for going into this. It was one of the weirdest runs I’ve ever done. Nick turned to me at one point and he was like, he looked at me and he was like, you know, this is a lot of fun. And I was like, kind of you’ve been saying bastard.
He’s like, people who really love running can find joy in this. And if you don’t actually like running, but you just like training and you like going after a goal, you might not enjoy this. And I thought about that and I was like, the guy’s got a point. He’s got a point. Like, he’s like, this is crazy and insane. And you’re not going to get hurt probably from it. Maybe once, you take a horrible fall.
And it’s just like a weird, fun thing to do. It’s like, he’s like, you’re not really training for anything right now anyway. Like why not? He made a really good point. It’s a nice sunny day. The snow was fluffy and beautiful. was a wild thing to do. I may never do it again, but I have done it. That’s running for you right there. Wow.
That sounds like fun though. Meaning, you’re right when you’re not trying to hit a specific pace or you’re not doing a specific workout, just go out for a fun run. I mean, you’re getting the work in any way. You’re just not worried about pace or anything. I love those. Well, that’s why I’m a trail runner. I love those.
There you
Alex Cyr (13:08.724)
Here I am wondering if I’ve ever really liked running.
Oh no, we’ve put Alex into an existential quandary.
You know what guys, I’ll talk to you guys later.
And pod. And on that note, we will give Alex the opportunity to disappear and never return to the podcast. Yeah. We’re going to take a break. And when we come back, we’re going to get right into the main topic of today. What is running economy and how can you improve it? We’ve got five or six steps that you can take. Don’t worry. Short term, medium term, long term to improve your running economy. And it’s important to do these things. We’ll tell you all about those.
no.
Michael Doyle (13:50.156)
right after this.
Michael Doyle (13:57.74)
running economy. We’ve heard a lot about running economy. I’d say like the last decade. It’s just this it’s this concept. It’s term within sports science within running specifically obviously hence the term running economy gets bantied about quite a bit, but I find it’s an opaque term that if I were to pull 100 random runners of all ability levels, what is running economy? I’m not sure what
the batting average would be in terms of correct answers. So Alex Cy what the youngest fastest.
I am 19 year old.
Yes, our 19 year old Alex Cyr. What is running economy?
Michael Doyle (14:45.582)
And then, then, and then coach Katelyn can come in and correct your, your
Yeah. Okay, that’s great. This is a perfect challenge because I’ve talked to a running economy a bunch before and it’s like, do I actually know what it is? So to me, running economy, it’s like how hard you have to work in order to run at a certain speed. So like if you have a good running economy, it’s not going to cost you as much oxygen and energy and calories to run at a certain pace. Then you can compare it to someone who doesn’t have as good of a running economy. It’s like kind of
how easy it is to run for you. Like a Honda Civic would have a good gas economy, whereas a big hummer or gas guzzler may be able to go at the same speed as the Honda Civic, but they need a lot more gas to do it. Katelyn, how’s that?
That’s great. That’s Fuel efficiency in a car, like miles per gallon. That’s exactly how I would have said it. Amount of oxygen you consume at a given pace, right? So you can have two runners, right? You can have two runners running together at the same exact pace and their running economy can be quite different. So that means one is consuming. Of course, the less oxygen you consume, the better running economy you have, right? So that’s the way that you want to look at it. I was actually
I took a, it was my turn. took a deep dive guys. went in and got some good info. let’s compare a couple of legends. Okay. So let’s think about Steve Prefontaine and Frank Shorter. So we’re going back into the seventies, right? Munich Olympics. So Steve Prefontaine had a VO2 max, right? And this is part of the trifecta. You’ve got the VO2 max, the lactate threshold and the running economy, right? So Steve Pref…
Katelyn Tocci (16:36.92)
FreeFontaine had an 84 VO2 max, right? Super high, super elite VO2 max. Frank Shorter still had a very high VO2 max, but at 71. Okay, so that’s quite a big difference. Now, when they would run 5K pace together, could, you know, they were running it pretty much, they could keep up at the same speed and run together. So what was the difference? What closes the gap for Frank Shorter? The running economy. Okay, so.
that’s his miles per gallon, he was able to keep up and be able to bring himself up to the same level, to the same playing level by having better running economy, even though his VO2 max was a lot lower, right? So it’s something that can improve your performance as a runner, even if you have a lower VO2 max, you can still be a super fast runner. So anyway, it’s just interesting to kind of look at that and look at comparing the different runners.
running at the same pace, but having very different values in those different components.
And we should tease a previous problem. talked about the quest for the sub two hour marathon on a legitimate course, like a London marathon or a Berlin marathon instead of a test event like in Choghi ran the sub two in 2019. We talked a lot about running economy because that was sort of a curiosity that I think Nike really explored with those athletes back in 2017 when they did breaking two.
Uh, but we also talked about, um, some of the research that was done in elite athletes by this dude, Dr. Michael Joyner. And he, he looked at the top Kenyan runners in the world. And I think it was like 2011 or something like that. And he discovered something at the time he thought was quite kind of baffling, which was that just as you said, incredible running economy, VO2 max for a super elite runner wasn’t super high.
Katelyn Tocci (18:37.769)
So interesting.
Yeah, yeah, it’s really interesting. Now, of course, you can also have different types of running economy at different sort of like speed levels. Use the car analogy. It’s like a drag race or race on an F1 track versus a race on a road or long distance race like Le Mans or whatever. 800 meter runners can be super efficient, obviously at faster speeds than a marathon runner. But if you ask an 800 meter runner to run at a slower speed, they’re obviously less efficient.
The same thing obviously goes with the sprinter will be the extreme example of that. So let’s talk a little bit about what influences running economy. Like how do we change it. What are the sort of parameters of running economy. What is like what are the building blocks of running economy for us. And like is it just genetics. Katelyn, am I able to improve it or am I cursed with the running economy.
you
So there are some things that are highly genetic. it’s a little tricky, like, I don’t know, limb length. Like we can’t change. Exactly. A super long arms, have super long legs. You want to have that perfect ratio. So there are some things that we can’t change, but we can work on and we’re going to get into the different ways to do it.
Michael Doyle (19:44.94)
long arms.
Katelyn Tocci (19:58.722)
different sorts of efficiencies like neuromuscular efficiency, which would be like coordination between the nervous system and the muscles. You can work on your cardiopulmonary efficiency, right? So your heart and lungs, of course, we’re having a big aerobic base and we’ll get into working at all those different, at your different paces and your different effort levels. Biomechanics, that’s something that gets a little, you you use specific biomechanics and then you get into technique and that gets a little murky, right? Because
There, you know, yeah, we don’t want to take too deep a dive into that because before it was like you have to perfect your running form and you have to make it, actually you’ve got to change this, this and this. But now the research is saying more like if you run with that running form and you’ve been doing it for thousands and thousands and thousands of miles, if you want to make a change, it’s got to be pretty gradual because actually trying to make that change can make your running economy worse because you’re changing something that you’re so used to doing, right? Yeah. So, but there’s something in there with biomechanics as well.
Yeah, I think all three of us actually coincidentally kind of started running at the same time. Alex was still in diapers and Katelyn and I were, you know, in our, our college days. but we all sort of started running roughly at the same time, which was during I, what I would call like the, the great running form scare of like the late aughts or whatever, where it was like, there was a real obsession with running form, I’d say about 15 or 20 years ago. And it was like, this is the
The solve, this is the be all end all of running is you need to like master your running form and that will make you the ultimate version of yourself as a runner. And I think that’s been somewhat disproven to a degree, although it’s still a very kind of like murky and controversial subject. But yeah, have either of you guys, do either of you obsess or have obsessed with your running form in the past? Alex, is this something that like…
in the high school or college days, the coach was coach like doing drills to make sure that you’re like your arm carriage was correct and your knee drive was right and stuff like that.
Alex Cyr (22:02.552)
So in my undergrad, so between the ages of 18 and 22, I was at a very cross-country focused school. And so we put less emphasis on running form because there wasn’t much speed. We didn’t have an indoor track, right? So it wasn’t so geared towards the speed. After that, the following coaches that I had were more track focused coaches and both of them had the same feedback for me. They were telling me I was a shuffler. So I didn’t have much of a kickback.
Okay. that’s where they struggled with the same thing. They wondered, both of them, and they don’t know each other, right? I lived in two different cities. They wondered how much should we change this guy’s stride to give him more of a back kick and maybe strengthen his hamstrings? And how much should we just leave him to do his thing? He’s already 22, 23. He’s been running like this for five, six, seven years. Maybe that’s just how he runs. What happened?
was that I didn’t do any particular stride correction, but I lifted at the gym. I did a whole lot more strength and speed training. I was also transitioning from cross country to 1500 meter work or mile training. So that happened naturally. And by getting stronger, my stride changed and I stopped shuffling. so I don’t know, like, so I’m a bit of two minds. I think if you do a lot of running, if you
strengthen yourself, you’re probably going to correct the things that are really wrong with your form. But I still to this day, I have little things about my form that aren’t perfect. Like I have a bit more of a swing on one side than the other side. And that’s just, it’s just it is what it is, I guess. And I’ve never tried to correct it because it doesn’t seem to be causing me any issues. So
That’s excellent. That’s exactly what you want to do. You want to strength train and by strength training, you’re indirectly fixing your form. So that’s like if you’re going to approach it, that’s the way that’s absolutely the way to approach it.
Michael Doyle (24:07.246)
Hold on, Katelyn. Hold. Pull it back here. We’re we’re giving away too much. We’re going to do a whole like our closing segment will be on, you know, the five ways you can. Our tips for how you can improve your running economy. And you’ve just teased a big one there. But yeah, I think that I think that there’s.
I go
Sorry, sorry.
Michael Doyle (24:34.732)
We always talk about like, you know, like, should you be a heel striker or not? And heel striking is affecting your efficiencies and your running economy and holding you back as a runner. And you got to get on your mid foot or your forefoot or blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think the reason why, especially a lot of newer runners, heel strike is because that is actually the most efficient way you are moving your body at that time through time and space. Right. And so in a weird way, it’s a form of efficiency.
until you develop, you know, a bigger aerobic base, your body composition changes, you, your, your neuromuscular efficiency improves, you strengthen those, muscle, your, your, your, your slow and fast twitch muscle fibers, your biomechanics improve, you become more metabolically efficient, you build, build a aerobic engine.
mitochondria in your body develop that those little batteries that power your aerobic engine, all those things need to come into place. But when you’re a beginner runner, you don’t have any of those things. So your body is actually just trying to like figure out your brain and your body are working together trying to figure out how to move from point A to point B as as efficiently as you can without, you know, totally messing yourself up. And that’s probably that’s the reason why your heel striking, right? Okay.
Before we take a break, we’re gonna take a little break in a second here, then we’ll get into tips and our own personal experiences here. How you can figure out your running economy. Okay, we’ve talked about VO2 max. There’s a VO2 max test that you can do. There’s a variety of sort of like fairly accurate VO2 max tests you can do yourself like on a track and stuff like that as well.
Our watches now are more accurate than ever at telling us things like our VO2 max, but running economy is a, again, a more sort of gray area, but you can do a lab test. Have either of you ever gone in the lab and had your running economy tested before?
Katelyn Tocci (26:45.614)
I have. I haven’t actually. What an experience that was. So you know, go to the lab, get all hooked up because you know, the important, the reason why you can’t measure your own running economy is because you need to have the mask, right? Because they need to be able to measure the oxygen that you’re consuming and the CO2 that you’re expelling. And so that’s a big part of the test. So I take my test. I’m super excited to go into the hospital to this amazing cardiologist here in Costa Rica. We actually train him in the running club.
And he’s wonderful. So he took my husband and I in who are the coaches and runners and he wanted to test our running economy. So I take my test, I’m psyched. I feel like I am flying on that treadmill. Just like really running as fast as I possibly can. like, I’m gonna ace this test. I’m gonna do amazing. So I take the test, I get off. The cardiologist is explaining my stats to me. Okay, next. My husband gets on, takes the test. My husband gets off the treadmill. He calls like 10 doctors.
to come look at this. He’s like, look at this perfect specimen of a runner. Look at how, like, I am telling you, I was like, are you kidding me right now? I mean, of course I was so happy for him. It was hilarious. He called in like all the interns, the residents, everyone who’s, you know, studying. And he’s like, come take a look at this perfect running economy. You see where this drops off and this lactate threshold and this, and I’m just like, all right.
That’s fine then. So anyway, took the wind out of my sails a little bit. I apparently do not have good running economy.
Oh, okay. So you got something else going on that’s making you a decent you got like a strong VO to Max. Yeah, your lactate will. Yeah, just stop it is all hell.
Katelyn Tocci (28:23.855)
Something
Katelyn Tocci (28:31.374)
I’m just like tough as nails. think that’s it. I just like kill myself every run. I think that might be it.
I have a theory that like the vast, vast, vast majority of runners can like, there’s the whole central governor theory of like, can you push yourself to 100 % of your, what you can actually output in your body? Your brain tells your body no, but like 5 % before you can do it or 2 % before that’s called the central governor kind of like driving a car at max speed. I feel like most runners are like, yeah, it’s like 98%. They’re, they’re just like, no, I can’t go any faster. And there’s the rare person who’s like,
No, I can actually overclock it. I can put it to 102%. He’s at the finish line. Cyr, have you had your economy tested? I know you did then the VO two max test.
Never. Yeah, only the VO2 max test. And I really wanted to get it tested because I was kind of the opposite of Katelyn. I was actually no, I’d be some probably the same as Katelyn, I had a really good VO2 max to the point where my running time should have been faster. then that either my willpower was off or my lactate threshold or my running economy.
You
Michael Doyle (29:44.59)
Well, you know, no one could be perfect, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So I’m in the market for a test
I think Joyner will ever find his perfect athlete with all three things firing 100%.
No, exactly. And there’s that intangible we just mentioned where it’s like you can push yourself to the 100%, which is a dangerous ability. That’s a dangerous superpower being able to push yourself to 100%.
Do you know what I feel? I feel like that is a weakness in a way because every time I take a test to try to figure out my marathon pace, I’m always frustrated 100 % of the season because I think I’m just good at taking the test and it’s a much shorter distance. And so yeah, I’ll take a 3K test. The solution is take a longer test to make it harder and I need to push for a longer amount of time. Because I can take a 3K test and then with the output, with the outcome, if I put it into the equation,
Katelyn Tocci (30:34.488)
the paces are faster than I can handle. So I’ve got to adjust them.
that’s interesting. Know thyself. is like, talked about this in past podcasts. It’s kind of my like philosophical obsession with running. It’s all about knowing yourself. Right. Okay. Let’s take a break and then we’ll get into, we’ll talk about, let’s talk, after the break, let’s talk about how to improve your running economy. Real, real world applications, things you can actually do.
Michael Doyle (31:10.656)
six ways to improve your running economy plus one bonus at the end. All right, let’s go through it guys. A little tease there for us to get to the end.
First things first, the number one thing you can do, I think any runner can start doing today. It’s a very, very simple thing to do. It’s kind of fun to do, which is strides. Alex, do you do strides?
almost every day.
Nice.
Yep, my coach hates me and makes me do this fartlick session on every easy run. it’s good.
Michael Doyle (31:58.734)
He loves you. It’s like he’s like making you your medicine. Yeah.
It’s tough love. It’s yeah, like just a quick fart lick at the end of each run, right? Like one minute, 45 seconds, 30 seconds, 15 seconds. And the goal is just to get your legs moving. It’s not meant to tire me out. It’s just to keep me in touch with good form and speed.
Yeah, okay, so strides, I am a big believer in strides. I have been doing them my entire marathon running, for lack of a better term, career, even though I’ve probably made a grand total of zero dollars and zero cents running. They’re really important. And in fact, I think people don’t do them as much as they should do them, even if they do strides. Okay, so what is a stride for those who are listening or watching us on YouTube or Spotify that are…
unfamiliar with the term stride. It’s basically like a short acceleration or sprint, usually no more than sort of the length of the straightaway of a track. like kind of your 80 to 100 meters, it doesn’t really matter how far you go or how much time it takes. It’s just, you just don’t want it to turn into a really long effort of, know, more like Alex, you were saying a minute and then breaking it down. A minute’s a very long stride that’s sort of getting into an interval.
area, but obviously the minute you would run less aggressively than say, I do them in like a 12 to 15 second type stride is usually what I do. It’s like a little like acceleration sprint. You can do them on an easy day. You can do them before a workout. You can do them in the middle of a long run if you want to. You’re probably not going to get yourself in trouble doing 10 or 12 or 15 strides.
Michael Doyle (33:48.268)
An alternative you can do to a stride, which is like a variation on the stride, if you’re bored of running on flat land straight, is a hill sprint, a short hill sprint, same amount of distance. You pick a very steep hill, say a hill in your neighborhood, with a really good steep grade that really slows you down when you’re going up it, like a hill steeper than you’d do a hill workout on. And you just sprint for 10, 12, 15 seconds up that hill. You just work as hard as you can up that hill, get your heart rate really high.
in 10, 12, 15 seconds, and then just walk or jog down to the bottom and do it again. Do 10, 12, 15 of them. You can build up how many you do in a session over the course of a season of running. And I have heard anywhere’s from one stride per mile you run a week as a rule of thumb to one stride every two miles. If it’s like, cause that’s intense. Like that’s a lot.
Yeah, you 15 miles in a week, it’s 50 strides in a week. You got to try to fit in here and there. That means you’re striding out every single day almost, which I don’t wonder if that’s not a bad idea, particularly in the first, say month of, so you’re training for a marathon in the spring and you’re, you’re working on like, you know, 14, 16 week program, like the first four weeks, if you’re doing strides all the time, I don’t think that’s a bad idea. Cause you’re probably not doing a big workout, right? Not yet.
Yeah, you know what I love about strides too is that when you’re just kind of having a moment where you feel like you’re getting a little slow or you’re feeling a little sluggish, throw in one of those strides and I feel like it automatically makes me just run faster. It just makes me feel more efficient in general and I love throwing those pickups in when I feel like I’m having a bit of a rough day.
Yeah, it sort of turns it turns the switch for you a little bit. Exactly. It’s the blood flowing. And of course, the reason why we do strides with regards to running economy is over time, that’s just training in all of these kind of good behaviors, the neuromuscular relationship, the efficiencies of how your form is moving, like talking about like how you approve running form over the course of like
Michael Doyle (36:01.642)
years just do a lot of strides for over a long period of time and your running form will gradually improve over that time.
And it’s also a great way to gradually improve your cadence over time because that’s something that for me took years and years and years to improve. did it very gradually and I felt like strides, just those pickups are a great way to start working on your cadence without overdoing it like we were mentioning before. Not to overdo it so you’re not pushing something that just isn’t the way that you run, But cadence work is great with strides.
All right, second one, Mr. Cyr, this is sort of your bread and butter, right? Something that you’ve adopted and you mentioned earlier in the podcast, something you’ve adopted in the last couple of years in a much more serious way, which is.
strength training. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, this may very well surprise you because you see my big broad frame, but I’m not a naturally strong guy. I was always small and quick, but I wasn’t all that strong. And so that’s why I gravitated towards running. And for the longest time, I thought, well, I don’t really need strength for running. I’m not a hockey player or a football player.
But I was dead wrong and eventually I started getting injured a whole lot because I don’t think I was strong enough for the speed at which I was trying to run. so in the last several years, I’ve incorporated strength training. Now, the tough thing at the gym, and I’ll tell you right now, if you’re not someone who strength trains for running is when you go and you try it out, you’re going to want to lift a little bit heavy.
Alex Cyr (37:45.58)
because that’s where the benefits come. like kind of when you’re a little bit near the edge of what you can lift, like doing a good strong deadlift, a good strong squat. With that comes the injury risk. I’ve eaten it at the gym before. I threw out my back deadlifting last year. It’s a fine line. like now I always try to lift, you know, something that I know that I can handle. I try to get to the gym like…
rested, hydrated. I don’t just treat it like an afterthought because it can be an injury risk. But then ironically, if you don’t go to the gym, that’s also an injury risk. So I try to incorporate it like pretty thoughtfully. And I see the results like when I get on a good strength training kick like that safer. Okay, for me, it’s like a 510 mile, that five or that five minute mile starts feeling like an easy 515 or 520 mile. Like I can run faster without working as hard. So it’s like
There you go, running a coffee.
It’s improving my running economy, yeah.
All right, and I guess we can add to that as sort of like a footnote to strength plyometric work.
Katelyn Tocci (38:50.798)
Yeah, the plyometric work will help a ton with, I don’t know if you guys heard a lot about leg stiffness, right? So you want to have a better ground contact time, right? Which is how fat, how much you’re bouncing off the ground. Like how you want your foot to spend as little amount of time as possible when it hits the ground. So things like plyometric exercises, which is jumping, right? Jumping jacks, squat jumps, jumping lunges, box jumps, all those sorts of things where you want to…
be explosive, right? So any jumping exercise is really explosive as a plyometric. So that can help with things like leg stiffness and ground contact time and just strength in general, explosiveness. So plyometrics are a great thing to throw a couple of exercises in, maybe at the end of your strength training session, when you’re kind of wrapping up to get that in. You don’t want to do a huge long plyometric session because you also don’t want to overdo it. But throw a few exercises in there at the end, and that’ll be a great addition to help with your running economy.
because running is jumping. Right? Yeah.
Exactly. That’s exactly right.
jumping a little bit forward, you’re skipping. Yeah, a box jump. It’s amazing if you’ve not done a box jump in a while or never in your life and you go and you give it a shot. try to do, you try to do, let’s say three or four box jumps in a row. It reveals just how efficient or inefficient you are at that basic, basic act, right? How inexplosive you can become.
Michael Doyle (40:21.804)
Or B, and how inefficient you are, like landing the box jump and then exiting back off the box and land. Those efficiencies are really something that if you do that over and over again, over the course of several weeks on a regular basis, you incorporate it in your routine, you become super efficient at that. And that translates onto the ground in terms of like, like you said, really quick ground contact, really efficient ground contact, really efficient leg movement. And that will help.
Going again.
Michael Doyle (40:51.887)
ease the burden that your body faces in terms of like getting your legs to do that for you when you’re running.
Can I add one quick thing? Just a personal experience. When I go to the gym, I tend to like go three by 12. Like that’s kind of like a set in your head, three times sets of 12. If you’re not sure about the box jumping and you’re that inexplosive person that Michael’s talking about, don’t be afraid to be like three by four or one set of five. I’ve built up too quickly. It’s hard on the body. So like, don’t just feel like you need to do 50 box jumps because you’re going to be hurting the next day.
These are simple exercises that I think in our minds we see them and we kind of have like a muscle memory of how to do these things from like, just from like being alive, from being kids, from playing out in the playground when you were seven years old, but then actually executing on it is a totally different thing altogether. So like start small and work your way up. Yeah. Do one set of five and see how that goes. Right. All right. Number three.
Building an aerobic base. It’s as simple as that. Just run more. Just run more. Just run. Just add to your running. This is a tricky thing as well because you have to do it intelligently. I wouldn’t suggest if you’re running three days a week to suddenly starting to run seven days a week, that’s a big jump for your body, right? But just run more, run easy.
Run. Yeah.
Michael Doyle (42:24.846)
You know, take it easy. Do your easy. One of the gospel of distance running easy runs, easy, hard runs, hard. That just remember that, you know, don’t take the hard days off. Don’t go hard or even moderate on the easy days. Embrace the easy day, but you got to build that aerobic base, right? And
Katelyn, what’s like there’s there’s some science behind this, right? Like in terms of building mitochondria, which you’ve mentioned earlier in the podcast, the reason why we build an aerobic base for running economy is
Yeah, I mean, basically what you want to do is you just want to be able to be able to run longer at faster paces. And that all begins at the base because as you run for, as you build your volume and you run for longer distance or longer amounts of time, you’re going to automatically get used to running at this pace and your body will automatically become more efficient at running at this pace.
The more you do something, the better you’re going to get at it. And what we look at, like as a coach, what I look at with my athletes is, especially really competitive athletes is, you want to find the balance between, I mean, I want that athlete to run as much as they can with zero risk of injury. So you want to find that balance for everyone because the more you run, the better you’re going to become without risking over-training and without risking injury. So you need to find that sweet spot.
And like Michael said, gradually increasing, usually we go with the golden rule of 10 % a week. You don’t want to do that and you need to have your D training weeks. So you’ve got to figure it out. It’s a big master plan, but running as much as you possibly can without risking overtraining or injury is the golden rule to becoming a more efficient and economical runner.
Michael Doyle (44:20.162)
It’s like the number one piece of advice I give to any runner of any, at any level is just like, just try running a little bit more. You know, that’s as simple as that. Just try running a little bit more and just take it easy. this segues nicely into number four, which is try running at a regular basis at what we would categorize as VO two max pace or sort of between mile and five.
5k pace. Basically, this is like a fancy way of saying, add a workout to your week. Yeah, do intervals. And that will build your running economy over time because you will become you will develop super efficiencies by running intervals at that pace. Over time, you will build your VO2 max, which will help with your overall running economy at that pace.
Do intervals. Yep.
Michael Doyle (45:18.434)
Alex, you’re somebody who lived in VO two max land for a big chunk of your running life. This is something that obviously improves running economy over time. You’re now like Mr. Half Marathon. You’re focusing on that distance right now, as well as five K’s and 10 K’s. Something that you obviously do on a weekly basis.
VO2. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the best way to see how much a VO2 max workout, hard workout affects your body, don’t do this at home. Get injured for three months. This is what happens to me. If I come back from an injury, I’ll spend a couple of weeks not working out, right? Because I’m building up slowly. And I swear the day after my first VO2 max workout, I wake up and I feel like a different guy.
My muscles are activated. My legs are stronger. I feel like my lungs doubled in size. It has such an effect on you and I remember talking to one of my previous coaches and he said if you need to get fit and you only have like three weeks to do it. You hammer the vo2 max workouts. They’re a huge bang for your buck Which also means they’re very taxing on the body is don’t go out every day and do vo2 max workouts But they’re a must like no matter what you’re doing
you should incorporate them at least sparingly in your training plan.
The legend, Keninisa Bekele, the great five and 10,000m owner who turned into a great marathon runner. So he obviously had some incredible running economy as well as he must’ve had, he must have a very high view to max. He was a world record holder in the 5,000 and 10,000m for a long time. He famously would get himself in shape in like three weeks by doing exactly what you just described, which was just
Michael Doyle (47:10.592)
hitting VO to max workouts very, very hard. Yeah, there’s, there’s a workout you want to do. And you want to feel like you’ve both exhausted yourself. And also the next day, as you said, you wake up and you feel a tingling sensation like something has changed my body, the VO to max is definitely the way to go. But obviously, you want to do it in an intelligent and structured manner.
Yes.
All this to say like probably a great idea to get a coach, follow a program that makes sense to you for your goals. you just don’t want, mean, can do a VO two max once a week, a workout once a week, if you just want to maintain general fitness. But if you want to have success in a half marathon, a marathon, a 10 K of five K, you need a program to stuff it. Okay. Speaking of goal races, our number five way to improve your running economy.
It’s simple. If you’ve got a goal and you’ve got a goal race in mind, run at that goal pace or something approximating that goal pace or perhaps in a safer way, would be running at what the perceived effort is for that goal pace at that point in your journey of that season, right? Like, like if your goal marathon, say for example, Katelyn Tosse is to run
259.59 with the Boston Marathon, just as an example.
Katelyn Tocci (48:39.886)
In my dreams. your dreams. In my dreams.
Goal pace is not going to feel like marathon pace, say 10 weeks out. It’s probably going to be more like 305 is going to be if you’re ranging towards it. So you have to sort of adjust, but have a goal in mind, figure out what that pace is and start getting comfortable bit by bit doing little bits of that goal pace on a regular basis. Right. Alex, you do this.
You do this on a regular basis as well and short increments. You’re doing short little sessions of running goal pace for like a few minutes at a time and things like that.
Yeah, I ran so much at goal half marathon pace for these last two builds that by the time I got to the race, I was locked in and it was really easy. Like you want to avoid getting to your race and having to run race pace and then have it feel foreign to you from the start. Like that’s more likely if you’re doing a shorter race, like no marathon should hurt in the first couple of kilometers. But if you’re training for a 5k and you want to run 20 minutes, that’s four minutes per kilometer, right?
You got to know what that feels like. You have to have done that many times in preparation for the race. Yeah, totally.
Katelyn Tocci (49:49.1)
Yeah, I absolutely love throwing goal race pace in because I do know a lot of runners who don’t do that for the marathon and that to me is key. I do intervals. So I think this weekend, well, what I’m going to run my long run tomorrow, I’ve got to do, you know, 4K at easy pace, 3K at marathon pace, 4K at easy pace, 3K for 28K. And so those blocks, as I continue throughout my season, they’re going to get longer and longer and they’re going to get up to being,
7k at marathon pace and it just really like Alex saying and the more and more you run jumping back to what we were talking about base running and just running more. The more you run, the better you’re going to get. The more you run at your goal race pace, the more economical and the more efficient you’re going to become at that goal race pace. So that’s gold work. You you can also throw it in midweek and do some threshold and marathon pace training. Well, thinking about your, depends what distance you’re racing. We’re talking about the marathon you could do.
some threshold work. So it’s just a little faster than marathon pace. And then, so when you get to those marathon pace intervals, you can take a breath and say, well, this doesn’t feel as hard as threshold pace. Right? So those are those little tricks to start working in there and improving that running economy.
I feel like the last number of years I’ve been living in lactate threshold land. It’s like so many workouts at lactate threshold pace. Yeah. And it’s one, that’s one core strategy and one pretty winning strategy for having a successful marathon is doing a lot of lactate threshold work and half marathon as well. imagine too. So, okay. So where are we at here? our, our sixth and final tip.
They’re my favorite.
Michael Doyle (51:26.318)
for how to improve running economy. And this is one that I think kind of will, to a degree, as with many of the other ones, as with just like running more, like it all falls into line. There’s a synergy to all of this. If you haven’t sort of noticed already that this kind of feels like the building blocks of a successful structured training plan, a goal-oriented running season where you’ve got…
a race goal at the very end of the season and you’re working towards it in a coherent manner. And it will build running economy naturally. But this last one is to fine tune your body composition. And what we mean by that is I don’t think we mean weight loss for the sake of weight loss. I think that’s a very dangerous thing to suggest. Certainly not calorie counting. I don’t even own a scale. Like I just don’t think along those lines.
Are we three scale lists people? Yeah, there you go. Yeah, no scale
I didn’t know that.
No, it’s scary. Anti reptiles. Sorry. We’re deep into it. Yeah, no, I don’t own a scale. We used to have one in college and we’d weigh ourselves and it’s just, I don’t know, it didn’t really accomplish much other than give you another metric to look for is complicated things. Yeah, your weight goes down a little bit probably naturally as the season goes on as you work hard.
Michael Doyle (52:32.11)
Yeah
Michael Doyle (52:56.994)
Yeah, as you strive towards that goal, as you layer in more volume, as you work on that aerobic base, as you add in a workout, which requires a lot of efficiency and really stresses your body in a big way and requires a lot of recovery as well as you add long runs if you’re doing say a half marathon or a marathon.
as you’re doing those strides and that plyometric work and you’re hitting the gym and doing a little bit of lifting. mean, like all this, the body composition will sort of come together over time. So there’ll be this sort of wonderful marriage of all of these, all of these tips will turn into a really successful body composition. But there are some things around the edges you can do as well, right? Like I think diet and I don’t mean dieting. mean like
Actually thinking about what you’re putting in your body is a very important thing. I know it’s something like, I think every season I go into it thinking to myself, okay, just be a bit more of a grownup, Michael, like less cereal, you know?
No more midi wheats. Yeah.
Yeah, it’s so easy, right? Like, yeah, less of the stuff that’s in the center of the grocery store or more of the stuff that’s along the periphery of the grocery store, I guess is one sort of like, easy way to think about it, right? Eat whole foods. Have a balanced diet, try a lot of fruits and vegetables. Just the basic stuff. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s common sense, right? It sort of
Michael Doyle (54:30.634)
Impose common sense on yourself when you’re thinking about fueling your body.
And also make sure you feel enough because if you don’t feel enough, you just won’t have good workouts in general and you won’t be able to improve your running economy. That’s always my side of it as well. So you have to look at both sides. That was my New Year’s resolution this year, guys. And I have been killing it, think. Making sure to fuel up really well before those long runs and your workouts, so you feel good. You feel good. You’ll run better. You run better. You’ll improve your running economy.
And one final bonus. said there was a bonus one. And this one we’re going to turn to Alex Cyr to discuss in more detail because you are the one who knows the most about this stuff. Super shoes question mark.
Yeah, that’s the big one, right? Super shoes. I don’t think this has been necessarily proven or tested more so, but I think there’s a general consensus that super shoes will make you more economical as a runner. Another way of saying they clean up your stride. You don’t have to work quite as hard to run the PR in a pair of alpha flies.
than in a pair of Pegasus, for example. And this just makes sense. Like, try to wear a shoe from the 1990s, a big, bulky shoe that doesn’t really give you much.
Michael Doyle (56:03.798)
Like every Gen Z kid right now wearing a pair of old New Balance or ASIC
Yeah, like, try running. They’re now stylish, right? It’s like, try, try those. It’s gonna be way harder. Your run is going to be tougher. So I think there’s a built-in running economy in those super shoes for better or for worse. And then that problem, if you’re thinking, geez, why should I wear some super shoes? You should maybe ask yourself, how often should I wear these super shoes and benefit from that running economy? My take on that is in a race, absolutely. In a workout.
sometimes super shoes or super trainers which have a little bit more cushion to them. But it’s probably best not to do it all the time. Because with the lack of cleaning up of your stride that these shoes do, it allows for your own body to take control and improve its own running stride. It’s like running on super shoes to an extent is kind of like being on an escalator, right? You’re not actually training yourself to move forward.
as much as you would with a regular training shoe. So yeah, thank you. So take the benefit for a race. Why wouldn’t you? We need Thomas back on the podcast to debate whether or not we’re super
good analogy.
Katelyn Tocci (57:10.124)
Nice one, Cyr.
Michael Doyle (57:19.726)
That’s right. He’s but he’s anti-super shoe. He thinks he’s sacrilegious. Don’t take that free running economy. It’s cheating. You’ve got to work for that running
Whereas I’m like, of course take it, it’s free! Or they’re $700 if you’re wearing the Adidas Pro Evo 700 Canadian. But maybe don’t wear them on your easy runs. Like train your body to become more economical and wear the Nimbus or something.
I’m
Michael Doyle (57:47.576)
Yeah, I think that’s where we sort of have landed with super shoes is that like, yeah, it feels like they clean up your stride. They kind of like, they tighten up the loose ends, particularly in the second half of a marathon, the wheels are starting to come off, right? And so they’re giving you a little lift there. They’re kind of correcting you back into the place where you should be. But obviously this is not something you want to be wearing every day because then you’re not going to learn these very
good habits, physiological habits on your own. And you’re not going to actually be a more efficient runner. Okay. I think we’ve covered running economy. I now understand what it is. I now understand the little things I can do beyond my cursed genetics, my cursed genes. Okay. We’ve got our six things plus
going out and buying a pair of Alpha Flies for our next gold race.
you
Okay guys.
Michael Doyle (58:51.01)
No, that’s not even… Yes, financial running economy, not at all.
Economical at all.
